Sabbath-keepers Waterloo.... (226 views) Subscribe   
  From:  SahaganBeta   8/2/2003 6:20 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 49)  
 
  677.1  
 
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ; 
For some years it was not only my privilege, but my pleasure, to fellowship with many of you here on Delphi Forums. However, between two and three years ago, I found it necessary to attend to some matters that made it impossible for me to continue doing so. 

So it is, that after an absence of over two years, I return to Delphi and face many changes, some welcome, some unwelcome, some startling. Among the most welcome was to see that some of the folks I had fellowshipped with previously, were now hosting their own successful forums. I find this exciting, for I recall their dedication to God, and know of their self-less-ness in helping to insure that we too, might enjoy Him in fellowship with one another. 

Another change though, was not so welcome. For I found that in almost every forum I've visited since my return a few short weeks ago, the sabbath-keepers have virtually taken over. They lurk in plain sight, and whenever you make a new convert, when they are the most vulnerable and most in need of your love and guidance, these people attempt to snatch them from you, with their false humility and arrogant self-righteousness, as quickly as possible. 

I found though, that while the sabbath-keeper will not waste one precious moment before pushing their doctine and practice on your forums....they most certainly WILL NOT extend that same courtesy to you. 

For in the course of the past three or four days, I have been visiting "open debates" ("Open Christian Debates"), thinking that I would enjoy the pleasant diversion of fellowshipping with the sabbath-keepers and perhaps, even learn something useful to me. 

So I started three threads on their board. They were named, "Jesus broke Sabbath, bragged about it!", "Do you keep the Sabbath? I don't think so" and "Are you an adulterer, not even knowing it?" Now, I will be the first to admit the titles are provocative, but that was by design, for I wanted to fellowship with as many law-keepers as possible, However, my carefully laid plans were soon brought to nought. 

For in fact, I was able to discuss these issues with only two people, Barbara3, I believe it was, and MaryQuiteCon (Mary, quite THE con? You must excuse my sense of humor). At any rate, by simply holding forth the Word of God, as it is written, your humble and ignorant servant WAS ABLE TO PUT THE THE ENTIRE FORUM into conniptions. For they absolutely COULD NOT STAND before the simple, plainly put, Word of God (nor will they ever be able to do so). They attempted to provoke me into personal attacks, so they could ban me legitimately....they called me 'liar', 'heretic', and other such things, as well as accusing me of twisting the scripture. And by the grace of God, none of their devices were effective against me. (These people simply cannot stand to have the Word of God placed before them as it is written....it is amazing! Does the Guinness Book of World Records have a category for such as they? They would win hands-down!) 

Then last evening, when I tried to reply to both Mary the Con, and Barbara, I found the 'reply' button disabled on my computer. However, this morning, I recieved notice of 4 replies Mary has made to me overnight....none of which I can reply to of course. Is this the way Christian discussion is conducted? Is this fellowship in Christ? 

In fact my friends, perhaps its time we started asking ourselves some serious questions. If Paul thought this error was serious enough to devote the entire book of Galatians, much of Romans and substantial parts of Hebrews to it, shouldn't we also address it? For we've seen, exhibited before the whole world, the end of their doctrine, of their error, in David Koresh, who was killed with many of his sabbath-keeping disciples in Waco, Texas, some years ago. So then shouldn't we ask, are sabbath-keepers even Christian? We know that they will not inherit the same legacy that Christians will inherit, "Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. 

And we know that, "....whatsoever is not of faith is SIN." Romans 14:23 

And we know that, "....the law IS NOT OF FAITH". Gal 3:12 

So how can those who adventure to keep that which is not of faith, be considered Christians in the eyes of God? Is this why Paul said, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE." Galatians 5:1 and 4 

The sabbath-keepers will say that I have twisted the scriptures (although I've allowed it to say only that which is plainly spoken)....and so I invite you, no, I urge you with all possible urgency, to go to 'open debates' and see for yourself the true nature of our sabbath-keeping friends. 

From this point onward, I will be posting a series of posts, call them bible studies or scripture lessons....and each and every one will examine the law-keepers' errors in light of the Word of God, just as it is written. 

I invite you to join me in these discussions, for I know they will be profitable to all of us (the law-keepers excepted I suppose....and even then, if they will simply believe the Word of God, it would prove profitable to them as well). 

And to the law-keepers I say, the free ride is over. Henceforth, you will be opposed at every stop. In order to gain one inch, you will lose ten. 

God bless you! I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified to be....the least among you.
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/2/2003 10:24 am  
To:  SahaganBeta   (2 of 49)  
 
  677.2 in reply to 677.1  
 
Hi Sahagan,

Eloquently put!  

Paul talked about the law quite extensively, although the moral law is still in effect today, the sacrificial law was fulfilled by the Blood of the Lamb being Jesus Christ.

For example, in Acts 21:24-26 Paul goes along with purification to show fidelity to the law. And he expressly stated in verse 25 that in no way should a Gentile be expected to observe any such laws except the law moral having to do with idol worship, pagan sacrifice, and whoredoms.

The law of Moses was not sin to keep but Paul explained in so many epistles and precepts that there was a better way.  It is that 'better way' we should be striving to keep and maintain, not the 'other way' which is not sin to observe, but the definition of sin.

I look forward to your postings, Sahagan.  God's blessing upon you! 

         

 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   8/2/2003 12:33 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (3 of 49)  
 
  677.3 in reply to 677.2  
 
Hi Mister Falcom; 
Well, its plain to see that I'm not alone in having thought much about these things. 

And it IS important, else we wouldn't have so much of the New Testament devoted to the subject overall. 

Always the law-keepers say to me, "But you mean we have no law? That with the Old Testament law, we are without law?" 

And of course, you know the answer to that as well as I. God said to Peter, James and John, on the Mount of Transfiguration, that "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, HEAR YE HIM." Matt 17:5. God did not say, "Hear Moses", nor did He say, "Hear Elijah", but God said, "HEAR HIM".... 

Jesus Himself, after His resurrection and just prior to His ascension, said to us, "Teaching them to observe all things WHATSOEVER """I""" HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt 28:20. Jesus did not say "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever Moses said unto you", nor did He say, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever Elijah said unto you"....but He said to us, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have said unto you". How much more do we as Christians need? 

So if we are to hear what Jesus said, it is "The law and the prophets were UNTIL JOHN: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Luke 16:16 

It is "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy BUT TO FULFIL.' 

'For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED." Matt 5:17-18. He went on to say to us, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye SHALL IN NO CASE eneter into the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:20. And yet, there are those who would have us return to the arrogant self-righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, by keeping the law they kept, knowing all the while it is insufficient to save us. "....for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." 

So how then are we justified? Oh its hard, its so hard, we must work so hard....we simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and HE IS OUR JUSTIFICATION....no wonder the sabbath-keepers want us to return to the law. It is too difficult to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, isn't it? Thank God! for the simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ! 

And if we are to HEAR HIM, we must hear Him say, "A NEW COMMANDMENT I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:34. 

And Paul? What about our hearing Him? The Word of God tells us, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD." 1 Cor 14:37. Many people may not like it, that Paul is giving us the commandments of the Lord, but it was Jesus who said to us, "And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46. If we aren't going to HEAR HIM, and do the things He says, why indeed, bother to call Him Lord? For by our refusal to accept His Words (even if they are by Paul, or Peter, or John) as the Word of God, we deny Him before men, and if we deny Him before men, He will deny us before God. 

So what does Paul say about obeying the law? He says, "Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.' 

'For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' 

'Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:8-10. Where in all this then, is keeping the dead, done away with, nailed to His cross, abolished in His flesh, taken out of the way in order to establish the better law, keeping of the sabbath? It is excluded, by the very Word of God. 

You mention the Gentiles, and the degree to which the bible tells us we must keep the law, in Acts 21. In Acts 15 as well, the Holy Spirit, and the church in joint counsel combined, missed a perfect opportunity to bind us to the sabbath law. But did they? 

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have TROUBLED YOU with words, SUBVERTING your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: TO WHOM WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT:' 

'For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay NO GREATER BURDEN UPON YOU THAN THESE NECESSARY THINGS;' 

'That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, YE SHALL DO WELL. Fare ye well." Acts 15, 24, 28-29 

There is no sabbath law here, for it had stopped with John, and had been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, "For Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth" Romans 10:4. Christ, and Christ is us, is the fulfilment of the sabbath law. It is not in observation of one day in seven; it is living in the Holy Spirit seven days a week. "But if ye be led of the Holy Spirit, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW". Galatians 5:18. We have been given the Word of God on the issue overall....and so long as we do not attempt to keep a dead law, placing ourselves back into the bondage of the law, WE SHALL DO WELL. 

That's enough for me, to have the Holy Spirit say to us, that we are doing well.... 

God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be the least among you.
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/2/2003 2:37 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta   (4 of 49)  
 
  677.4 in reply to 677.3  
 
You preach it!  And you Preached it right! Rightly dividing the Word!!  Hallelujah!!!! Thanks, Sahagan, you made my week!!!
         

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/2/2003 9:12 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta   (5 of 49)  
 
  677.5 in reply to 677.1  
 
Good to meet you 
I debated with Mary the Con a while back and she quickly shut me 
off and accused me of being ignorant 

I have found the few sabbatarians I've met quite resistant to 
any kind of discussion 

Worse, like any false movement, salvation is not a gift from God 
right now but a process to be worked through 

Flies right in the face of Titus 3:5-6 for starters 

I got lots of stuff on them puppies, and I got friends around these parts that would love to travel over to these sites and play 

Let me know 

God bless you
 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   8/3/2003 10:01 am  
To:  boodada   (6 of 49)  
 
  677.6 in reply to 677.5  
 
Hey BOODADA; 
Only God's Word can set to flight the darkness....only truth can set free the people held in the bondage of the law of sin and death. 

I believe, that if we allow one soul to be turned aside from God, by these people....that we are in jeopardy of having their blood upon our hands. 

I say we hit them with everything we have....first, the Word of God, secondly, our prayers, thirdly, our persistence. 

I don't intend to let up a moment, for we're talking about eternity here, the difference between heaven and hell, between bondage and freedom. 

So yes my Friend, we can use all the help we can get! 

God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/3/2003 1:09 pm  
To:  boodada   (7 of 49)  
 
  677.7 in reply to 677.5  
 
Hi Boodada,

You are making an excellent point!

 

Worse, like any false movement, salvation is not a gift from God 
right now but a process to be worked through

 

Since it is required for people to acknowledege God and to receive His free gift of eternal life, somehow Satan sees just enough opportunity in it to be able to insert into it some works based and man centered practices.

 

I now when talking to Christians usually differentiate between Redemption and Salvation as redemption is completely the work of God and yet Salvation (healing) does require some effort on our part. In just getting a grasp on these and a few other Christian concepts like what is a child of God what is a Son of God and when do we get adopted helps to reveal the works of cults to be mans ways and not Gods ways.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 8/3/2003 7:18:03 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/3/2003 1:15 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (8 of 49)  
 
  677.8 in reply to 677.7  
 
Hi David, 

The idea of clarifying between salvation and redemption ( and who does what )is a very helpful. Thanks for posting your thoughts on that. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/3/2003 4:22 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (9 of 49)  
 
  677.9 in reply to 677.8  
 
Hi R/C,

 

The joy for me has been in reading your Excellent posting.

 

Keep up the Good Work!

 

Here is a another source for words like, Redemption and  Salvation.

 

www.BasicChristian.org/theology.html

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    8/16/2003 6:42 am  
To:  ALL   (10 of 49)  
 
  677.10 in reply to 677.9  
 
As one who believes in observing the sabbath, I've never understood the Christians who teach that it is wrong to obey God on this. 
Shabbat Shalom (Sabbath Peace)

Barbara 
  
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  From:  brent (brent696)   9/4/2003 6:39 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (11 of 49)  
 
  677.11 in reply to 677.10  
 
Dear Barbara, 
>>>>>>As one who believes in observing the sabbath, I've never understood the Christians who teach that it is wrong to obey God on this.<<<<<<<< 

Observing the Sabbath "SAT." is to reject Christ as the Bread of Life in favor of Manna in the wilderness. Those who ate that Manna Died, for it was not the TRUE Bread from Heaven. The Sabbath you keep is not the True Sabbath but the shadow and you reject the True Sabbath for the shadow. 

Therefore Messianics are not Christians for they have not put their hope in the Spirit that is the True Sabbath. Neither are they Jews for they worship the Law selectively and not the whole Law. 

Why then is it wrong to follow the 7th day Sabbath? If you are a Jew it is not, but then you would be under Law. If you are a Christian it is wrong for it eleveates the symbol and blinds people to that which the symbol represents, namely the Spirit of God. 

In short you are INVESTING in Performance and not INVESTING in the Spirit. 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   9/8/2003 7:47 am  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (12 of 49)  
 
  677.12 in reply to 677.10  
 
Hi; 
Unlike people, God doesn't speak out of both sides of His mouth....He says a thing, and regardless of what we might wish or think, that is the way it is. 

Prior to the law, God's people lived a promise. God had promised Abraham that his seed would bless all the nations of the earth. This was fact. In being the seed of Abraham, the people were made heirs of the promise. You may try to do something else, something different, but in God's eyes, only the promise held true. 

Then came in the law. The law was given because sin had entered in. And it was the people of promise to whom the law was given. It was given to those who were the seed of Abraham. At that point, with the law, that was God's speaking and it was the 'law of the land'. Pick some other way, do some other thing....it made no matter. God was in the law, only the law. God said, "This is the way I shall deal with you, and I'll make no exceptions". He set the promise aside for a time, to deal with this matter of sin. 

But in the course of time, the SEED of Abraham (in Christ), to whom the promise was made, came. And in Him was fulfilled all the law. The law is no more, the promise has been restored, re-established, put back 'on track' as God had intended from the beginning. And today, that promise in Jesus Christ through grace IS GOD'S SPEAKING ON THE MATTER. The law had served the purpose for which it came, and was set aside to make place for the promise once again. 

There will ever be those who do not have ears to hear, or eyes to see, who find it much easier to trust in the arm of the flesh, who cannot comprehend the fact that an 'intangible' thing to us, can be so REAL to God. But its being intangible is what makes it a matter of purest faith....there's nothing for us to DO (for we've entered into the sabbath comprehended in and by the promise, inasmuch as the sabbath contained in the law has been done away with). 

The law is purely a matter of how it is God wished to deal with sin...."Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom THE PROMISE was made." Gal 3:19 

Now that the seed has come, how then does that set aside the law? It sets aside the law because the transgressions for which the law came, were dealt with eternally in the wounds of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, "He was wounded for our transgressions". Isa 53:5. In Him, there are no more transgressions, therefore no need for a law that was given for transgressions. Remove an arm, and the bandaid for the elbow is no longer required, in fact, cannot be used. 

Today, we make a choice. Is it law? Or is it Christ? Is it the law of sin and death, or is it the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which has made us free from the law of sin and death? You cannot continue to obey the law of sin and death, while living the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, WHICH MAKES US FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. To attempt to keep the law of sin and death, you must withdraw yourself from the jurisdiction of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. In short, you must withdraw from grace, as Paul says of those in Galatians 5:4, "....ye are fallen from grace." 

Regardless of what it is we might like, or think, or wish, this is God's speaking for us today. And God does not speak out of both sides of His mouth. 

God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Christ Jesus, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you
 
  
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From:  Franksharing    9/12/2003 12:57 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta    
 
    
 
Hi Sahganbeta

I recall having good discussions with you in the past, I pray that we may continue to do so. Although as you put it I must be one of those arrogant and self righteous you were pointing at as Sabbath keepers.

 

As long as anyone truly has Jesus in their heart they are his sheep! We cannot judge them with out pointing a finger back at ourselves. The same spirit we judge we will be judged!

 

Rom 3:27-28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law?  of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. KJV

 

If we are our relying on our good acts and intentions and understanding to save us, it is the same as trying to keep the law by works to be saved. There is no salvation in that!

 

There is no power in the law or our works that can save. It takes genuine faith and love for God that grants us power to obey. To do His will and good pleasure by faith and love.

 

The righteousness of Jesus provides us grace, developing a faith in Jesus that converts the heart and covers our sins with the white robes of Jesus righteousness.

 

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, KJV

 

Love for Jesus automatically grants faith! True love; know no bounds by gender, race or nationality.

 

Rom 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. KJV

 

Eph 6:23-24 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. KJV

 

Some Christians claim the Law was nailed to the cross. They claim that if a person looks to the Law as a standard to live by then they are sinners! Or are still under the Old Testament Law.

 

 Can that be? Is that true? What does the Word of God say?

 

Rom 7:7-8 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. KJV

 

With out the revelation of the law we would not know what is sin. With out knowing what sin is, as far as we would be concerned there would be no sin. 

 

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. KJV

 

Willful deliberate disregard for the Law will rob us of our new heart. Which may condemn us by grieving the Holy Spirit and not responding to His guidance.

 

Rom 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. KJV

 

Are we truly seeking to know Jesus by walking according to His example by faith as a way of life?

 

Peace and Joy be in your heart my dear brother as you continue your walk with Him!
May we all seek to know Jesus!
Frank

 

 

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
From:  SahaganBeta   9/16/2003 6:41 am  
To:  Franksharing     
 
    
 
Hi Frank; 
Its good to see you're back from your time away....and no, of course I wouldn't put you in that group of 'arrogant and self-righteous' sabbath-keepers. 

If you've read all the posts here, you will see that I've insisted only upon one thing. And that's the scripture. 

For instance, you say some people claim the law was nailed to the cross. Actually, the bible makes that statement clearly, purely and in an aboveboard manner, "....having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES THAT WAS AGAINST US, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Col 2:13c and 14. 

You know as well as I that the law came because of transgressions, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions till the seed should come to whom the promise was made." Gal 3:19 

And that passage above, or more specifically Colossians 2:13c makes it undeniably clear, that He has "....forgiven you all trespasses". The law WAS our schoolmaster to bring us to faith (Christ), "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster". Gal 3:25 The seed came, the law was fulfilled, and there are no more transgressions, thus, no more law. 

You see, as to keeping one day instead of another, that is all well and good, and is not biblically proscribed. Go to church on Saturday if you like. But you cannot 'keep the sabbath' without falling under the curse of the law, wherein, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN in the book of the law to do them." Gal 3:10 

Now, in deference to your intelligence, and even to your uncharacteristic (for sabbath-keepers, not uncharacteristic for you, for as you say, we've fellowshipped on these matters before and I know you somewhat) honesty, I'll take a shortcut here, and acknowledge that you will say "But I do not keep the law for righteousness. I keep the law out of love to Christ". 

And I'll go even further. If you can make such a statement in absolute total and unimpeachable truth, I'll accept it. But when you say such things as 'keep the law', and 'disregard of the law will rob us of a new heart', I take the liberty of doubting you can do so. 

If you do keep the law, believing there to be even the tiniest bit of advantage to you before God to do so, then you are under the curse mentioned above. You must keep the whole law. Every jot and every tittle, for unless we have allowed Christ to fulfill every jot and every tittle of the law, then every jot and every tittle remains for us to obey, and that includes all those ordinances, killing those who break the sabbath, and a huge host of others. You cannot choose and pick which laws to keep. You keep them all, or you are guilty of them all, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, is guilty of all." James 2:10. If therefore you keep one, or ten, or thirty, and break the others, you are likewise guilty of all. Its truly one of those 'either/or' situations. Either keep it all, or keep it not at all. 

We do keep a law, and to fall from that law, whether it be by sin or by attempting to keep the law of sin and death, is to sin. That law is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. 

You see, when we keep the law, we're keeping the law of sin and death (2 Cor 3), we are keeping a fleshly, carnal law. But when we keep the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are doing two very important things....1) We are walking in the spirit, and not in the flesh, and 2) We are fulfilling the law, just as Jesus did. To claim that we must then keep the law, when our walk in Jesus fulfills the law, is to throw doubt of the effectiveness of His sacrifice and love to us, into His very face, dishonoring the Saviour. 

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus HATH MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.' 

'For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4 

And this is why "But if ye be led of the Spirit, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW." Gal 5:18 

We are not under a law given for transgression, for we are no longer children of Adam, but are under a higher law, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (which has made us free from the law of sin and death). And since we are now in Jesus, and are the children of God, we are no longer under the law, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14 

The sons of God are not under a law made for sinful man....but are under the law made for the Sons of God, which sons we are. 

Finally, here's an important concept. You will never find, in the Old Testament, the words 'eternal life'. In fact, God never promised the keepers of the law even so much as a life in heaven hereafter. All God promised those of the law, was that "....your days may be long on the earth", and that "....through your seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed". That lack of the promise of eternal life for the keepers of the law, has never been rectified. 

But for those of us in Christ Jesus, the promise is eternal life. Paul gave you hints, clear clues that this is the exact case. For note Galatians chapter 4, verses 21-31. I'll quote only the sum (verse 30), although I hope you read the entire passage, remembering what I've said above about the promises God makes to law-keepers, "Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman". 

The law-keepers have been promised long life on the earth, nothing whatsoever about eternal life. We in Christ have been promised eternal life. But the law-keepers, the sons of the bondwoman, will not be heir with those of us who have eternal life. Interesting juxtaposition, isn't it? 

And falling from grace? This is any time when we are not being led of the Spirit, anytime when we are not walking in or by the Spirit. It is clear that keeping the law is a walking in the flesh (you cannot read Romans chapter 8 without being fully aware of this....) You cannot keep the law of sin and death, while walking in the law that has made us free from the law of sin and death. "For the flesh lustest against the Spirit, and teh Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things what ye would". Gal 5:17. You cannot walk in a fleshly law, and in the Spirit simultaneously. To walk in the flesh, is to withdraw from the Spirit. This is why you cannot be saved, and at the same time, keep the law. These two concepts are at enmity, the one with the other. 

You must do one or the other. Keep the law, walk in the flesh. Walk in the Spirit, keeping the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and you are not under the law. To return to the law, after having been made free from the law of sin and death, is a return to bondage, a deliberate act of the will whereby one withdraws from the leadership of the Holy Spirit, and is thus said to be a 'falling from grace', and rightly said as well. 

Anyhow, chew on this and let me assure you, there is much more when you'd like to continue. God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you
 
From:  SahaganBeta   9/16/2003 6:45 am  
To:  Franksharing    (15 of 49)  
 
  677.15 in reply to 677.13  
 
Hi Frank; 
Pardon my doubling posts on you, but I do want to say, that had you been here, when the events that generated this thread occurred....your levelheadedness, straightforwardness and respect for others, might have eliminated it altogether, or made it absolutely unnecessary. 

I do appreciate that we've been able to discuss these matters at some length in times past, without seeing that fellowship degenerate into name-calling and other devices not fit for those who honestly love God to resort to. 

God bless you. 

Sahagan
 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/16/2003 8:21 am  
To:  SahaganBeta   (16 of 49)  
 
  677.16 in reply to 677.15  
 
Brother Sahagan

Yes, I could tell from reading the post I was responding to must have been in response to some very critical attitudes. 

I wanted to remind you that we cannot lump all in one type or category. As you know head knowledge of faith and belief in the Word can be a lot different in practice or other words their actual practice of their self made religion. 

A person that claims to love Christ but in practice shows disrespect for other. Is that the example we receive from Jesus Christ our Lord or is it the self made religion that does not really change the heart?

We could continue to show verses for the rest of our lives trying to prove a Bible backed truth to what seem to you or I a straight  truth. All it accomplishes as hardening hearts to what God Word has to truly reviel through His still small voice. 

Spiritual truths that we all desire to have in our heart, with a closer and closer walk with Jesus can very easily to over looked, or miss apply because we are trying so hard to show what "I, you, they, are them have as a revelation as truth, that we all seem to think we have!

Why do we do that? When what is needed is a sharing in the Word that will draw the Holy Spirits guidance into our conversation. A Spiritual growth in knowing God better and better by each revelation of His love.

Just sharing my thoughts as I sit here my brother. Take care and God bless.

brother Frank


May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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From:  SahaganBeta   9/16/2003 9:44 am  
To:  Franksharing     
 
    
 
Hey Brother; 
Thanks for your reasoned reply....with your permission, I'm going to say a few things that seem to me, will pretty much apply equally to us both. 

First, I think we both realize that each of us is going to remain steadfast in our respective positions. We wouldn't be able to carry on the discussions we've had were it not for the fact that we are both well versed in scripture. And knowing that, it would be easy enough to let the subject lie. 

But on the other hand, I think we're both aware that others, not so well versed in the scriptures, might chance to read our discussion. And I know it is firmly my hope, that if any do so, they would find my argument so much more persuasive than yours....and I could expect no less from you, than to feel the same. I feel I have the scriptural high-ground, and know you feel as if you do as well. I feel too, that it is an error for Christians to attempt to keep the law, and will do any reasonable thing in my power, to see Christians, particularly newly born Christians, not be drawn or seduced into this deceit. And again, knowing you and your own stance, I know you feel my position is error, and that you would have Christians, and particularly newly born Christians, to embrace that which you feel to be a great blessing. I take nothing to myself, that I won't readily grant to you. In short, I reckon us to be well-matched in espousing our respective positions. 

And I see that in you, in your reply. You presented no recriminations, nor condemnations....but seemed to acknowledge much of what it is I've just now said above. Did more law-keepers possess such a quantity and quality of the Spirit of God as that, we might someday come to some kind of better understanding of the issue as a whole. Until we can come to the kind of accomodation we find in Acts chapter 15, regarding this matter, we will continue to come up short. 

Now, having said all that, and speaking from the heart, I want to point out just a couple of areas in this overall issue, that I find particularly distressing (well, in truth, one is distressing, and the other is interesting). 

What distresses me most particularly, is the abject dishonesty I see exhibited in some keepers of the law, and most especially, in keepers of the sabbath. They are exceedingly reluctant to admit that they feel themselves in a superior position before God, in respect to those who are Christians and yet do not worship on Saturday. They seek to seduce the younger Christians with feigned love and concern, all the while passing themselves off as tolerant of those who worship on the first day of the week. Only with great provocation can you make them state their position clearly, which is of course, that to break the sabbath is to sin. To this date, I have as yet failed to convince the first one of them to admit that Jesus Himself broke the sabbath, as is plainly stated in John chapter five. In point of fact, I am convinced myself, that they do not acknowledge the New Testament as of God, and Jesus Christ as having fulfilled the law, as He plainly stated He had come to do, in Matthew 5:17-18. In short, I doubt they are even Christian in our understanding of the word. 

And secondly, to the 'interesting' part. I have been reading Hebrews 1:1-2 for many years, but only now have I come to appreciate some of the many implications in allowing that scripture to mean just what it says. Let me share it with you....I don't ask that you reply to it, but that you too, try to fathom some of those implications, and then, having studied it more deeply, to feel free to get back to me on it. 

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners speak in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds:" Hebrews 1:1-2. 

It is clear, that if we accept this passage as the true Word of God, and I certainly do, that God has spoken twice, to two separate groups of people....and has done so in two different and distinct ways. 

It is also clear in scripture, where the one speaking ended, and the other began, "The law and the prophets WERE UNTIL JOHN: since that time THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS PREACHED, and every man presseth into it." Luke 16:16. 

God stopped speaking to the fathers by the prophets, with John. And began speaking unto us today, by His Son Jesus Christ, through the gospel of the Kingdom of God. Naturally, we see this division in a practical way, in the God-ordained divisions of scripture, to wit; The Old Testament is God's speaking unto the fathers (of Israel of course) by the prophets, and the New Testament is God's speaking unto us in these last days by His Son Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14). 

Now, here is where it gets tricky....what are we to do with prophecy related to the last times, for instance? How are we to distinguish what it is that constitutes 'Israel' today, as to whether we are speaking about the church, or about the nation Israel, or even the 'religion' of Israel, that is, the Jewish faith? And to complicate matters even further, what do we do with the Jewish Christian Church, or as I suppose many see it, the Messianic Jewish faith? 

Now, I'll state my position regarding these things, but will qualify as to whether I am firm in that position, or rather more tenative. 

1) As to the law and the prophets ceasing to speak, or to apply, with John the Baptist, I am firm in the conviction that they certainly did so. That further, the law was completely fulfilled in Christ (Matt 5:18), and is now fulfilled in us by our being in Him (Romans 8:4), I am firmly set. I go a step further, and say that the New Testament makes it clear that to then attempt to keep the law, is error, and perhaps even sin. 

2) As to Old Testament prophecy related to the end times, I'm a bit more tentative....even though I cannot find, in the New Testament church as we see it in the New Testament, such a thing as a counterpart to the modern day 'prophecy teacher'. Even the Revelator did not choose to include Old Testament statements from Isaiah, Ezekial, Daniel and so forth. It is a thing that sticks out in a glaring manner, especially given how many times those prophets are quoted in the rest of the New Testament, although being done so in hindsight, or as in proving to validate events that have already transpired. New Testament authors simply do not choose to use Old Testament prophetic utterances in revealing the last times to us (yes, Jesus used Daniel and the Abomination of Desolation in Matt 24, but that's about all we'll find in that respect). 

2) Both history and scripture indicate that the things that held or maintained in the Jewish church in Jerusalem, the keeping of the law, worship in the temple, and so forth, has totally given way to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus as practiced in the Gentile church. (In fact, in light of the truth of the 'curse of the law', no might or power on this earth, could have destroyed the Temple if God had intended for the sacrifice to continue. By allowing the sacrifice to end of course, God insured that no man on earth, could keep the law, every jot and every tittle, as He had so ordained. So that obviously, God intended the observance of the law to cease.)If there is a 'Jewish church' extant today, there is no reasonable expectation of it from the latest times we see described in the New Testament. In fact, Paul said, to the Jews in Rome, "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it." Acts 28:28. How much that means there is no 'Jewish Christian Church' is still a matter I'm not ready to stand firm on. Maybe with more time, I'll come to greater clarity on this issue. 

4) However, regardless of the Jewish Church and that matter, I am very firm on the fact that the Holy Ghost dictated that the New Testament church, as it is expressed among the Gentiles, is not to keep the law beyond the four points expressly stated (Acts 15, and Acts 21). 

5) And finally, I'm still not certain as to how we should view national Israel, the church and the Jewish church, in respect to prophecy and several other matters. 

So, please forgive the unseemly length of this post, and if you are so inclined, give some deep and penetrating thought to the two areas of concern that I mentioned to you. 

Eagerly waiting for more from you, I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    9/16/2003 10:58 am  
To:  SahaganBeta   (18 of 49)  
 
  677.18 in reply to 677.17  
 
Hi Sahaganbeta,

 

Excellent Post!

 

It is well thought out and thoughtfully presented.

 

I for one am Blessed by the Christian conduct that both of you are displaying. I'm sure that you two are an inspiration to many.

 

Sahaganbeta, I have been considering making a post on this topic and clearly your previous post has very adequately presented my concerns about Sabbath Keepers.

 

My own personal feeling is that Sabbath Keeping, as practiced by some, is to often a substitute for the true Rest we are Continually to have entered into in the finished and complete abilities of Jesus. I have found that it is used as a means to judge others and that is terribly wrong and takes everyones focus away from Jesus and places it on one's self.

 

There is much to be gained in Christian discussions of this nature as God has ordained the Backdrop of Christianity to be the Old Testament. So while people are discussing Christian Concepts of differing Christian views in discussing Old & New Testament writings it is a win, win, grow, grow, Bless, Bless, situation. I'm saying this in comparison to having a discussion with a cult or any non-Christian group that although informative it is not the Blessing that two Christians have as so much unhealthy cult information is inserted into the conversation.

 

Thanks Again!

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   9/16/2003 11:08 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (19 of 49)  
 
  677.19 in reply to 677.18  
 
Hi David; 
My sincerest thanks for your kind words....but I'd like also to point out that our friend Frank is also exceptionally kind and straightforward, and if there's any credit to be had for the way we've conducted ourselves, half of it goes to him as well (and I do see you noted that too). 

Brother Frank and I've known one another, to some small degree, for several years, and of all the law keepers with whom I've had the privilege to debate/discuss/fellowship, he has always been uppermost in my estimation. 

And I fully agree with you, that acrimony and personal insult really have no place in a spiritual setting. We're all, we hope, seeking something more of the truth to be found in God, and thus more of Him. 

On many forums, this kind of open and clear fellowship isn't possible. I appreciate that your forum is the kind where we can dig a little deeper, and all of us gain therefrom (I particularly like your 'win-win, grow-grow, bless-bless' thought. That one's good enough to remember and use again.) 

God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you 



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Edited 9/16/2003 2:09:25 PM ET by SAHAGANBETA 
  
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   From:  Franksharing    9/16/2003 10:03 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta   (20 of 49)  
 
  677.20 in reply to 677.17  
 
Greetings my brother

You posed several questions that I am happy to discuss with you, but I will work on it as I have time. It may be a few days before I can get back to you with my reply.

There is one of your statements however that I will reply to now. 

>>> Now, here is where it gets tricky....what are we to do with prophecy related to the last times, for instance? How are we to distinguish what it is that constitutes 'Israel' today, as to whether we are speaking about the church, or about the nation Israel, or even the 'religion' of Israel, that is, the Jewish faith? And to complicate matters even further, what do we do with the Jewish Christian Church, or as I suppose many see it, the Messianic Jewish faith? <<<

It is a good question, that I feel can be answered with a good thorough study of the OT sanctuary and by comparing what Paul has to say on the subject, along with James and Peter, and John the revelator in Rvelation. Chapter 1 spoke of Christ Jesus, and gave a good detail of how Jesus is represented simbolicly in all facets of everything that transpired as a type of the Heavenly sanctuary.

To me it is a fascination subject and with a good understanding of that subject helps in all other subjects even time prophecies.

I am looking forward to sharing thoughts with you. I enjoyed what you said and appreciate how you expressed your self.

May we be but humble brothers through faith in the saving, redeeming blood of Jesus!
Frank


May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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From:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)    9/16/2003 10:06 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta   (21 of 49)  
 
  677.21 in reply to 677.19  
 
I just want to say that I am truly blest by all three of 
you, - SAH, David, and Frank, - as brethren in the LORD 
who seek to express BOTH Love AND Truth, - which is the 
very essence of true Wisdom. 
Divine Love and graciousness is THE HIGHEST EXPRESSION OF 
THE LAW {Torah} - it is the very nature of GOD, far above every 
list of do's and don't's. - The Law is good and righteous. 
LOVE must cover all. ..... and GOD is definitely *not* a 
Legalist. ... :^) ... surely we all know that much. 

blessings 
in Him. 

Len 


---> Isaiah 54:15-17 <---

"If you have not [and show not] (Divine) Love... all the rest profits you exactly NOTHING." - 1 Corinthians 13.

*LenBenHear/FranknSense/Romans 8:14 + John 3:8*


VINCIT OMNIA VERITAS

* Truth Triumphs Over All *

(Always "speak the Truth in Love")...[see Profile] 

* There is a time for mercy...and a time for Judgement. * - (which one you get depends upon your honesty and humility before GOD)


 
NOTHING YOU AND I CAN OR WILL EVER DO can substitute for the mercy and grace found in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, The Lamb of God. 

* HE IS The ONLY Way to forgiveness and reconciliation with GOD. WITHOUT THE BLOOD ATONEMENT THERE IS NO REMISSION OF THE ETERNAL CONSEQUENCES OF SIN. ---> The ETERNAL consequences of sin. 

* GOD IS SEARCHING EVERY HEART AND THEIR (actual) RELATIONSHIP TO HIS SON AND ETERNAL WORD! * * He is looking for REALITY: not pretense! * 


but the wise shall understand. 


WHAT IS HAPPENING?---> *Matthew 24:10-14* *Luke 21:22, 31-36* ~ II Timothy 3:1-9, plus verses 12-15. * HEBREWS 12:25-29 * 
- and THAT is what's happening. *FOR REAL* 

THE FINAL SIFTING IS IN FULL-THROTTLE!


* from the heart. *


It all has to do with *fruit* and destiny.---> YOUR choices. Choose Him: choose Life. HE IS GOD's Way to mercy, grace, forgiveness... and TRANSFORMATION! 
================================== 
 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   9/17/2003 6:03 am  
To:  Franksharing    (22 of 49)  
 
  677.22 in reply to 677.20  
 
Hi Frank; 
Well Brother, you managed to surprise and intrigue me, with your all-too-short paragraph on the sanctuary and so forth. I'm aware that the New Testament, in many different places, regards the Old Testament as replete with figures, types, and shadows of the reality in which we now live. And I particularly enjoy Hebrews and how it defines the New Testament realization of many of these things. 

I'd appreciate hearing more, and would like to suggest you consider starting a thread dedicated to just that theme. For as I noted, the whole question of how we are to view God's 'speaking in time past unto the fathers by the prophets', in relation to the now, to this very day, and to the coming events of the end-times, is one that greatly exercises my mind and spirit. 

And as to the other, of course, you are welcome to chew over what I said, and to get back to me on it. In fact, I'm honored that you are taking time to do so, instead of just shooting from the hip, as so many are wont to do. 

God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you.
 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   9/17/2003 6:06 am  
To:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)   (23 of 49)  
 
  677.23 in reply to 677.21  
 
Hi Len; 
Thank you! 

I can thank of no one, whose knowledge and manner of fellowship, would be more welcome than yours. So I hope you'll join in with a shout and a Hallelujah! 

God bless you. 

And by the way, thanks for your email sending me this way. While I had stopped by on occasion before, you renewed my interest, and seeing too, the open and honest discussion here, well, it seems a good thing to me overall. 

Sahagan 



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Edited 9/17/2003 9:08:52 AM ET by SAHAGANBETA 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/17/2003 11:57 am  
To:  SahaganBeta   (24 of 49)  
 
  677.24 in reply to 677.22  
 
Brother Shagan

I am filled with respect for your honest desire to look into he truths of God's Holy Word.

I can tell we will have many good and mind opening conversations. 

In my personal life I have had many ups and downs in my spiritual life, being rased as a Christian and growing up in Christian schools until I reach the age of doing what I thought "I" wanted to do. 

Which I am very sorry to say was a complete waste of time and health. I was older but still young when I came back to the Lord on my knees.

But I still had a struggle with letting go of self even when I knew in my heart that of my self I am nothing and there is nothing in me that is of any use without the indwelling of the love of Jesus.

In my most recent last few years I have found that for me, it takes good honest seeking of the Word of God that keeps my soul content and at rest in God's love and promises that are all fulfilled through Jesus up to His second coming.

God dose not give us this rest and peace just to sit at home are be a pew warmer at church. He wants us out there planting seeds and cultivating the soul so that there will be a time of a great harvest of souls that will be ready and thoroughly furnished for that great day of judgment and His second coming. 

The great thing is the promises of God do not stop there but continue through eternity. Amen!

What I am trying to express, I am sure we, both and others, who would like to enter into the study will be blessed with wonderful new insights into the love and character of God who is made visible in Jesus, our Redeemer!

I will get back to you soon my friend and brother
Frank

 

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   9/18/2003 12:14 pm  
To:  Franksharing    (25 of 49)  
 
  677.25 in reply to 677.24  
 
Hey Brother; 
All right! I am ever searching for something more of God and His Word. 

Unlike many, I am not blessed with visions, or dreams, or prophetic utterances, nor even audible voices from God (which it seems even the most freshly born in Christ have almost to excess, not to mention those who've been around in Christ for decades). 

But I do not consider that God doesn't love me greatly for all that. For I do have something that stands much more firm than even the loudest voices, or the greatest of visions and dreams. And that is God's Word. For in reading and studying His Word, God reveals Himself to me. And when that happens, the sensation of light flooding in is almost transcendent in its blessing to me. So that when all is said and done, I consider myself blessed by God all out of proportion to what I deserve, and therefore I thank Him without ceasing. For He truly is real to me. 

And to, while I do not say this about others, I've found that I'm too easily swayed into error by voices, dreams and visions....I suppose its like drugs. I consider myself an addictive personality (although I've never drank, smoked, taken drugs or any other such thing), and I suspect I could easily become addicted to visions, voices and dreams. 

And having become addicted to them, how then, could I tell from whom they come? For it is a fact with every Christian, that, "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." 1 Cor 14:32. 

I need, no, I MUST HAVE, something that is not subjective to me, to my raising, my education, my knowledge, my leanings, my preconceptions, my notions, even my digestion....and in that God's Word is objective, NOT subject to me, then I can place in it, an ultimate faith. For after all, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. 

So any suggestion that we dig deeper into His Word, seeking out those little treasures of truth, will have my unqualified support. 

And to though, it will also have my input, if I find that anyone errs in their presentation of God's Word. 

And that, in essence, is what good bible fellowship is all about. 

So, eagerly looking forward to some good discussion, I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you 



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Edited 9/18/2003 3:17:48 PM ET by SAHAGANBETA 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/18/2003 9:54 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta   (26 of 49)  
 
  677.26 in reply to 677.25  
 
Hi Brother Sahgan

I could not or would not expect anything less. I am looking forward to our study.

I just finished the fist part of "Sanctuary study and its importance." I will put it in a new post with that name.

I am looking forward to some good and interesting fellowship.

Your brother in the faith of Jesus Christ our savior.

Frank

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/23/2003 12:03 am  
To:  SahaganBeta   (27 of 49)  
 
  677.27 in reply to 677.14  
 
Brother Sahagan

  I was rereading some of the post and I thought it would be interesting to look at Col 2. Of which you were drawing my atention to. 

  I am going to keep the Sanctuary study going, but I feel this is touching on the OT Sanctuary service too. The OT Sanctuary includes the Law of God which was writen by the finger of God in stone. It also includes the laws of Moses which was laws of conduct of worship, with forms and tipes to pointed man to the Lamb of God.

  As you know this is what the Word is saying to me and I am not trying to say that I see all the truth in the Word, but we do need to explore it and seek more and more truths in God's Word that will change us more and more into the likness of Jesus!

   I feel it will be helpful to not only look at V. 13 & 14 but to start with V. 9 and go to V. 17

Col 2:9-17
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

  Jesus is repesented in the OT and in the NT He is said to dwell in the fulness of the Godhead.


10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

  When we have given our heart to Jesus through faith we are complete in Him. Nothng can separate us from the Love of God. (Rom 8:28-32)

   We can hardly comprhend what it means to be complete in Jesus when He is the head of all principality and power!

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

  Of all the OT wittnesses (Heb. 11) Jesus in the NT is the only one who showes a unfailing love and faith in God's promises. He shows us the true meaning of circmsision which is a change in the heart.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

  Amen, you talked of this in one of your post and all I can say is Amen!


13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

  With out the blood of Jesus even though we are living and breathing, in reality we are dead, because this life is nothing compared to eturnity with Jesus. It takes a New Heart to know God with a desiore to live for Him. A circumcised heart!

  With out a faith in the Hope to come, is kind of like eat, drink and be marry. That is all there is to this life of sin. 


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

  I have to ask, what was against us? The Law of God which is the Law of Love and Liberty wich Jesus fullfiled in all points for us, to show that God is just and fair. Or the laws of Mosses, the ordinances that  were overwelming to man who was unable to complie in all points. Note also that Jesus did not die on the cross to fulfill the ordanance for us because they were intended to point to Jesus and our need for Him.

  To me the nailing to the cross was the penatly for sin. Sin is breaking the Law and the penalty for sin is death. Jesus died that death for us, in our place. Now by faith the Law has no condemnation becaouse our New Heart is looking to Jesus our Rightiouness. Jesus washed our sins away by His Blood.


15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

  Amen!


16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. KJV


  Here again we see that Paul is referecing to the OT Sanctuary wich was fulfulled in the Body of Christ Jesus.

We can trust in Jesus and His promises. Amen
brother Frank

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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From:  SahaganBeta   9/23/2003 7:37 am  
To:  Franksharing     
 
    
 
Hey Brother; 
Well, as you undoubtedly know, the only point in your post that I would disagree with, is in the issue of His having nailed the handwriting of ordinances (the law) which was against us, to His Cross. 

And it was, according to scripture here, the very handwriting of ordinances that was against us ITSELF, that He did nail to His cross, not the penalty for sin, not even the curse of the law. Your statement is but a tiny departure from the truth of God's Word, but see where even such a tiny departure has led you....that is, if your departure were truth, the law would remain while the penalty would be gone, a thing that would make the law even at that, of no possible use. 

You question how the law could be against us, and so we need to see some other scripture for that, so with your permission, I'll point out a couple of pertinent passages. And remember, it is not necessarily so much that the law was bad, as it is that grace is so much better, and has God's imprimatur written all over it (2 Cor 3). 

Look at this scripture, where the law is referred to as the middle wall of partition between we and Israel, called by Paul here the 'enmity', which is certainly a thing against us...."For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the ENMITY, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain, one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having SLAIN THE ENMITY thereby." Eph 2:14-16 

You see, God's promise to Abraham, in Genesis 12, was not only to make of Israel a great nation, but that, "....in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed." The only way the Gentile world could be brought into this promise, was to take away the enmity. And that enmity was in the law. God doesn't make Gentiles into law-keepers; He makes law-keepers into Christians, saved and living by grace through faith alone. 

But remember, this promise to Abraham was a covenant, a two-sided contract, whereby Israel would keep a part and God would keep the other part, of the covenant. But Israel failed to keep their part of the covenant, sin entered in, and God, instead of simply tossing them aside to face their enemies on their own, as He had every right to do, gave them the law as a 'fixative' in an attempt to bring them back to the promise.... 

Here's how Paul says it, "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.' 

'For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." Gal 3:17-18 

The covenant God made with Abraham is the singular thing. It reigns supreme. Everything else is supportive of that covenant. And the law couldn't, didn't, disannul that covenant. The law was simply a tool in which to keep the promise, the covenant, alive, yet set aside until Israel could be brought to the fulfilment of the promise, through Jesus Christ. 

But the law and the covenant, even though complementary, are not able to co-exist. For if the inheritance is by the law, then the promise is annulled, it is of no effect. The inheritance is by the promise, while the law is a stop-gap, a parenthetic insertion, a 'fix' added by God in order to deal with the sin, until the seed, who is Christ, should come forth in the fulness of time. 

And so, the law is a temporary thing, given for only one reason, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hands of a mediator." Gal 3:19. (Note....while not pertinent to this discussion, the 'mediator' was Moses.) 

The promise was set aside, while the law maintained. And the law, added solely because of transgressions that short-circuited the promise, lasted only UNTIL THE SEED had come, to whom the promise was made. And of course, that seed was Christ, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Gal 3:16. 

It is vastly important, that we recognize the words of scripture aren't chosen on a whim, but that even their tenses, even their singularity or plurality, mean something before God. And Paul says here, when God says seeds, He isn't saying 'seeds' as in the plural, but 'seed' as in the singular. And that seed then, is Christ. 

When Christ, the seed came, the law was fulfilled, set aside and left to languish as a dead law; "But now we are delivered from the law, that being DEAD wherein we were held." Romans 7:6. A dead man is delivered from sin. But a dead man is also delivered from the law of sin. "For he that is dead is freed from sin" Romans 6:7. And we too, are dead to the law, Romans 7:4, and are therefore free from it. 

Note here too, that the law is seen as a binding thing, a bondage, spoken of just as if it too, were Egypt for the soul. While not so fresh in our minds, the Egyptian captivity never left the mind of the Jew, for it was made fresh in their lives daily, by the law, another kind of bondage, keeping them bound until the seed (Jesus, another 'Moses' leading them to salvation) should come, and the promise would once again take primacy. This is why Paul would say to the Gentiles, and the Jews once delivered from the law by grace, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the YOKE OF BONDAGE." Gal 5:1. Don't seek to return to bondage. Don't look back upon Egypt with longing.... 

Paul puts it another way as well, "Even so we, when we were children, were IN BONDAGE under the elements of the word: But when the fulness of time was come (my note: that the seed should come forth and the promise should return in its fullest force), God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, TO REDEEM THEM THAT WERE UNDER THE LAW, that ye might receive the ADOPTION OF SONS." Gal 4:3-5. Those who are under the law are servants, not children, and in order for us to be children, we must be REDEEDED from the law, not only the curse of the law, but from the very law itself. 

So once again, the law is a thing against us, for it is a bondage. That bondage, in the law, as the handwriting of ordinances which was against us, is what Jesus nailed to His cross. And we are to be diligent not to fall back into that bondage. For it is not possible, in covenant relationship with God, to be both free in God, and in bondage to another element, another covenant, another master. 

Here's how he characterizes the bondage of the law, putting it as a question to us, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTS, whereunto ye desire again to BE IN BONDAGE?" Gal 4:9 (Yes, he is here in fact, calling the law the 'weak and beggarly elements'). 

See here, the impossibility of accomodating both the law and grace simultaneously? We know God, and even more so, are known OF God, when we are sons, when we are in grace alone....so how then, Paul asks, can you, knowing God and being known OF God, think to return to bondage, to seek a return to the Egyptian captivity of the soul? 

To seal this, God has made a warning to us. What has He done? He has made the keeping of the law, to be sin for Christians. What!?! What an extraordinary thing to say! you'll exclaim....But, 

"....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Romans 14:23, and "....the law is not of faith". Gal 3:12. This example of 'rightly dividing the word of truth' cannot be gainsaid. For both statements are scriptural and spiritual fact, in whatever context you can possibly imagine. Both statements can be considered in fact, universal laws of God. 

This is why a return to bondage causes one to be 'fallen from grace' Gal 5:4. For if it isn't of faith, it is sin. And the law is not of faith. Ergo, THE LAW IS SIN. But the law, in itself, cannot be sin, for it is God's Word, given to the fathers by the prophets. So then, given all we've seen above about bondage, and so forth, it is the KEEPING OF THE LAW, that is seen as sin in God's eyes today. It is a being in bondage to the law, that is sin....for God has delivered us, redeemed us, from the law, and how dare we return to those weak and beggarly elements? to the Egypt of the soul? 

Parse this one out very closely, for while I don't usually jump into calling a thing sin....I am but setting before you the Word of God here, and the Word of God is explicit. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And the law is not of faith. You cannot have it any other way, and be scriptural. 

God bless you. I've enjoyed this discussion and look forward to more (I'm still looking forward to more fellowship about the covenant, for as we've seen here, it is integral to an understanding of law versus grace, and the way they are incompatible). Meanwhile, God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you
 
From:  Franksharing    9/23/2003 10:13 am  
To:  SahaganBeta   (29 of 49)  
 
  677.29 in reply to 677.28  
 
Brother Sahagan

As I read your post, it comes very clear to me that we are looking at the Law from very deferent view points.

First off you seem to view the Law as including the Ten Commandments and all the ordinances that God gave Moses to write down. Am I right on this? If not maybe you could explain to me how you do view it.

Now I on the other hand view the Ten Commandments as having to be the very nature of God and of life that God Created in us according too a standard that if altered is not perfect any more. Out side the Law corruption breads corruption. The unchangebleness of God through His Law, reviles His love and Character to mankind, by giving His Son to pay for our sins. 

All the ordinances given by Moses were included with the building of the Sanctuary that was a reflection of the plan of salvation for you and I. After the cross the laws of ordinances were no longer needed to point man to the promise of salvation, because it was fulfilled. The promise of free grace by the sacrifice of Jesus was accomplish. But their is still a lot of good information in the ordinances that will promote temperance and a healthy life style if we are willing to apply them to our lives. But that is only by choice.

Thou shalt not is used for the purpose of a lost love and understanding of God, and helps to get the priorities right.   If you look at "thou shat not" as, "To be one with God do not do."  it is still a free choice to look to the Law as a standard to live by so that we may work with the indwelling of the Spirit of God to refine our character to reflect the Character of God, by renewing His image in us, that was lost at the fall.

But it also is just like Jesus said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" which frees us from the burden of the Law and the penalty of the Law.

To conclude my thoughts, when you say we are not under the Law, I agree whole heatedly with you my friend! Because Jesus fulfilled the Law in all points, and it is promised that as long as we look to Him in faith, His Righteousness is our righteousness.

One other thought is what you said in one of your post about Jesus breaking the Sabbath. I believe your reasoning is not based on the teaching of the Word but on the teaching of the Pharisees and Priest that were the leaders and pillars of the religious order of the day. Jesus explained several times how they were in error!

Thank you for you time by brother. Take care and God bless.

brother Frank


May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   9/23/2003 10:30 am  
To:  Franksharing    (30 of 49)  
 
  677.30 in reply to 677.27  
 
Hey Brother; 
I hope you'll forgive my doubling up on you with my posts....but a thought struck me with such force, that did I not share it with you now, I'd likely forget it. And it is an important one. 

You will recall, in my post immediately prior to this, that I noted Gal 3:17, where it is said the law COULD NOT 'disannul' the promise, but that the promise reigns supreme. 

I should have noted, at that particular point, that while the law cannot disannul the promise, the promise most assuredly DOES DISANNUL THE LAW. 

Speaking of Melchisedec, of whom I suspect we'll hear much more in your sanctuary thesis, the author of Hebrews says, "And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,' 

'Who is made, NOT AFTER THE LAW of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.' 

'For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.' 

'For there is verily a DISANNULLING OF THE COMMANDMENT going before FOR THE WEAKNESS AND UNPROFITABLENESS thereof." Heb 7:15-18. 

There absolutely HAD TO BE a disannulling of the 'commandment going before' (that is, the law which was before Christ), because the law was at best, weak and unprofitable. 

And in this Hebrews 10:6-10 agrees, for in that the law was weak and unprofitable, God would say of it, "In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.' 

'Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God." Heb 10:6-7. 

God found no pleasure in seeing the law kept before Him. He rightfully deemed it weak and unprofitable. So when the Son of God came, it was to do the will of God in respect to the weakness and unprofitableness of the law. And even those who know the law, should be aware of this, for He is written of the entire volume of the book (of God). 

And going on, "Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered BY THE LAW;' 

'Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND." Hebrews 10:8-9 

In order to insure the promise was never annulled, God DID annul the law, in the person of Jesus, who it is said, came to do God's will, which will was the disannullment of the law. And in that disannulling of the law (the 'first'), the way was made clear for the re-establishment of the promise (the second). 

And in this action of our Saviour, lies our very lives. For that 'second' is the promise, God's 'will' as in 'testament' for Abraham and the seed of Abraham, which seed we are (Gal 3:29). 

And speaking of this last 'will and testament', he goes on to tell us plainly, "By the which WILL we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL." Hebrews 10:10 

So you see, our very eternal lives in Christ, are dependent upon the law having been disannulled, of having been made of none effect whatsoever. For it was necessary for Him to 'take away the first, in order to establish the second'. The PROMISE, that most important relationship God has ever made with man (or a man), cannot take effect, cannot appertain, unless the hindrance of the law had been removed. 

Do you see? God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you 
 
  
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From:  SahaganBeta   9/23/2003 11:11 am  
To:  Franksharing     
 
    
 
Hey Brother Frank; 
Well! While I was 'doubling' my posts on you, you were replying to my first. 

So, I will briefly reply to this last of yours. 

You say that you view the ten commandments as a different thing from the other ordinances and commandments. But that my friend, is the most pernicious and egregious error made by law-keepers. For you see, the bible, the scriptures, MAKE NO SUCH DISTINCTIONS. Remember, Jesus demanded that if the law still maintains, EVERY JOT AND EVERY TITTLE of the law must remain. If the law has been fulfilled, ALL THE LAW must have been fulfilled, and this includes the ten commandments. 

Now, I say there are no distinctions made, but Paul, having faced this same error you propose, singles out the ten commandments, and tells us pointblank, that they have been 'done away' with. Go with me to Second Corinthians chapter three, where Paul is drawing comparisons between, not the law, but the ten commandments, and grace, or the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. 

Let's begin with verse 6, "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." Here, Paul is referring to the new covenant, the New Testament, as the 'spirit' and that which gives life, with the Old Testament or covenant, with the 'letter' and that which kills. That's why he will go on in a few moments, and call the law, or rather the ten commandments, the 'ministration of condemnation' and the 'ministration of death'. Let's go on.... 

"But if the ministration of death, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVEN IN STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:" verse 7. Do we agree then, that the 'ministration of death, written and engrave in stones' is the ten commandments? Exodus chapter 34 makes it clear. And of course, it was the ten commandments that provided such a glory, that Moses found it necessary to cover his face with a veil when speaking to the people. And you will note in your bible, that 'glory' is in italics, and so, not in the 'finest manuscripts' as the bible scholars are wont to tell us. Leave the 'glory' there, or not, as you please. The results will be the same regardless. 

"How shall not then the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" verse 8. Here again, is the comparison. It is the 'ministration of death' set alongside the 'ministration of the spirit', the one giving death, the other giving life. But the ultimate comparison is in glory. If the ten commandments was glorious, how much more is the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus glorious? 

"For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory", verse 9 and a much more telling comparison. The ten commandments is the 'ministration of condemnation', while grace is the 'ministration of righteousness', and these are held in opposition. They are't complementary. They are in fact, incompatible. 

Verse 10, and the comparison is drawn even tighter, "For even that which was made glorious HAD NO GLORY in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth." The ten commandments was glorious, no doubt of that. But in comparing the glory of the ten commandments with the glory of grace, the ten commandments are as though they had no glory at all! For the glory of the spirit of righteousness in Christ Jesus, so completly eclipses the ten commandments, as to be said to be the glory that 'excelleth'. And for something to 'excel' in the eyes of God, is excellent enough. 

And verse 11, the crux of the whole matter, "For if that which is DONE AWAY was glorious, much more THAT WHICH REMAINETH is glorious." Clear enough isn't it? The ten commandments, that which was glorious, is DONE AWAY, so that that which remains, is glorious to the limit of the very meaning of the term. 

And Paul doesn't cut you any slack here, for misunderstanding, verse 12, "Seeing then that we have such hope, WE USE GREAT PLAINNESS OF SPEECH...." 

So you see, the ten commandments have been DONE AWAY, according to the plain speaking of scripture here in Second Corinthians chapter 3. 

And finally as to Jesus breaking the sabbath, that is too, simply the plain speaking of scripture. There is nothing whatsoever said about the Jews' beliefs or perspectives. It is stated as plain fact. Your objection here, which I've heard many times, cannot stand in the face of the scripture. Read John chapter five again, and you'll find it is so. For it matters not in the least what the Jews thought. What matters is what Our Lord KNEW. And He knew that 'whosoever doeth ANY WORK in the sabbath', is breaking the sabbath and is to be killed. 

And Jesus then, knowing that doing any work in the sabbath day, was breaking the sabbath, not only did the work, but confessed it frankly (forgive that almost pun) to the Jews and to us, for it is faithfully reported in scripture. 

My Brother, my burden here is not so much that you would see the law in its true juxtaposition to faith, but that you would come to accept the scriptures as the true Word of God, and not have it say things it does not say. The Word of God is clear enough. God doesn't need us to say things like "It was the penalty of sin Jesus nailed to His cross", when the scripture plainly states, beyond all dispute, that it was the 'handwriting of ordinances that was against us' that was nailed to His cross. 

God doesn't need us to make excuses for Jesus having broken the sabbath. For the truth of His doing so is set before us in no uncertain terms. To attempt to excuse it away with 'that was the teaching of the scribes and Pharisees', is patently false, for Jesus knew the law too....and that He broke the sabbath is as plainly writ as any passage in scripture. 

That's my burden Brother, that you'd come to see scripture as it truly is, the pure, plain, simply spoken Word of God, and a thing that we need not be ashamed of, nor make excuse for. For in truth, and seeing the whole of the context of God's Word, we simply do not have to diminish, alter or excuse the Word of God. 

For if we take Jesus' breaking the sabbath in context with the many scriptures that indicate the law had been done away with, had ceased to speak, indeed, had ceased to BE, so that His breaking the sabbath could in no way break a now non-existent law, we have no need for explanations or excuses. Jesus wasn't a sinner for breaking the sabbath, for the law of the sabbath, the law as a whole, had ceased to speak, to apply, with John the Baptist. We can break the sabbath and it not be sin, for not only does the law no longer speak to us, but it has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. 

And yes, you're right in that we agree to a much greater degree than it might appear. My only true disagreement with law-keepers, is in that most, if not all of them, think to gain something before God, that we who live in Christ only, in the Spirit of life, and are therefore freed from the law, do not have before God. Going to church on Saturday cannot be condemned according to the Word of God, in Colossians chapter 2. 

But 'keeping' or 'observing' the sabbath, that is roundly condemned in the Word of God, as something a Christian cannot do. For keeping or observing the sabbath empowers the 'curse of the law' and while those who 'worship on Saturday' simply because it happens to be their day of worship, are redeemed from the curse, those who attempt to 'keep the sabbath', by worshipping on Saturday are irrevocably placed under the curse. Do you see the so-important distinction here? If not, we can revisit it later. 

God bless you Brother. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    9/23/2003 4:17 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta   (32 of 49)  
 
  677.32 in reply to 677.31  
 
Hi,

 

I think the Covenant between God and Abraham is one sided as only God walked among the sacrifices of animals and birds. Therefore it is God that is fulfilling it.

 

However the Laws of Mosses which came 400 years after the covenant with Abraham is two sided as the Hebrews could only remain in the Promise Land as they obeyed the Law.

 

Therefore the New Covenant does not do away with the Covenant of Abraham and nor does it do away from the Laws of Moses as the Law has been written in our Heart it is made alive in us.

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Law) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

Excellent Topic and I do appreciate you wisdom on this topic as we all work our way through this most challenging of Issues.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/23/2003 11:55 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta   (33 of 49)  
 
  677.33 in reply to 677.31  
 
My dear brother Sahagan

Sahagan, as I read the post that we are sending back and forth, it strikes me that we have walked away form true fellowship into a competition on how to interpret God's Word. 

It is my fault, because in my zeal and in defense of how "I" entrepot the Word, I am failing to grow in a deeper understanding of God's Word, to be bless by what you have to share.

We have made it plane what we believe to the best of our ability.

 I believe the Law of God still stands, because Jesus died on the cross to pay for our failure to stand firm in the love of God. The Law will stand for ever and ever, but it will not be a burden or cause a fear of failing because Jesus paid the Price for the penalty of sin.   After the eternal destruction of the devil our nature will be a true representation of God's love with no temptations to do otherwise. We will be restored fully into God's plan from the beginning.

You have made it plane that you believe the Law of God  was cast aside for ever and ever. That you feel the Bible stands behind you belief. I am sure there is more than that because you do speak of Jesus and acknowledge that we are redeemed through His blood, but it is hard for me to find it. I believe it is the same for you as you read my post.

It has always surprised and amazed me how people will look at the same verse and see such a different revelation of understanding form it. But at the same time they fell blessed by the revelation that has unfolded to their understanding.  Of which I feel is true for both as long as they are seeking the true truth of the Word.

We have the promises of God that  by first seeking the Kingdom of God we will find it. There is no other condition to the promise. Jesus is our savior and without Him, Law or no Law we would have no chance to be saved from sin.

From reading your post I can testify that we have a lot in common, that is why we can call each other brothers and mean it.

The Love of Jesus is the main and important theme through out the Bible. Without His love He would not have paid the price for our failure that cost Him so dearly.

Our love and respect for Jesus will not go beyond our understanding. Our understanding starts out with the milk of the Word which is where we all start out, But we are not to stay there as some kind of birth defect that keeps us from growing.

I am convinced that we both desire a growing understand with a loving relationship with Jesus. Who is our righteousness and will continue to be our righteousness for ever and ever. Without Jesus we would have no victory!

So I pray that through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,   we can come to a real study of God's Word  that is not a defending of ones belief but will bring a blessing and a growing maturing love for Jesus.

If you like I will look at the verses you shared with me and continue in this discussion as we seek for the gems of truth in God's Word. 
I also feel it would be helpful it we made our post a lot shorter so that all can enjoy the conversation, and study.

Your brother in Christ Jesus 
Frank


May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  SahaganBeta   9/24/2003 9:21 am  
To:  Franksharing    (34 of 49)  
 
  677.34 in reply to 677.33  
 
Hey Brother; 
I hope sincerely that you're wrong in our possibly losing each other's fellowship over this matter of the law. For above all else is Christ....and He in us is the hope of glory. 

So, instead of blanketing you with many passages, let me just give you one or two, that you then, can believe, dismiss, or interpret in the way you feel best (although....you cannot find such a concept as 'interpretation' of scriptures in the scriptures. We are told, not to interpret, but to rightly divide the Word of Truth. And in this rightly dividing the Word of Truth, I insist in myself, that every verse pertaining to a subject with which I'm interested, must be RECONCILED to every other verse related to that same subject. If I were to say Jesus did not break the sabbath, I would be calling God's Word untrue....knowing then, that Jesus did break the sabbath, I must then account for His having had no sin, even though He clearly broke the sabbath law. I do not do this by disvowing the plain statement of scripture that He did break the sabbath....but by turning to other scriptures that say the sabbath has been done away with, disannulled, taken out of the way, fulfilled, nailed to His cross, etc, so that in His breaking the sabbath, there was no sin. In my estimation, no other method of biblical understanding is so apt to reveal the truth. I simply do not believe in allowing this verse, to make that verse into a lie. If there's error, it is in me, not in scripture.) 

And have you considered, that if Jesus sinned when He broke the sabbath, then we too, that is more personally I, sin, when breaking the sabbath? Are you telling me then, that I live in sin because I do not keep the sabbath? Are those the 'words behind the words' you're saying to me? If this is so, I am not of Christ, and you can't have fellowship with me anyway. See to what extent error can go? 

So, again, in order not to so overwhelm, here are but two points that are as much the Word of God, as the ten commandments (which as of yet, you haven't said to me what you see in 2 Corinthians chapter 3, where the ten commandments are 'done away' with).... 

"God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the Fathers by the prophets,' 

'Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son...." Hebrews 1:1-2. 

What is said here? Are we told here that the Old Testament, the law and the prophets if you prefer, are God's speaking, not to us, but to the fathers by the prophets? Did God speak to the fathers by His Son Jesus Christ in these last days? Or did He speak to us in this way? If God did not speak to the fathers by His Son Jesus Christ, how then, can we say He speaks to us by the prophets, in direct contradiction to "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son"? 

Can you see here two speakings? One to the fathers by the prophets? And the other to us in these last days by His Son? Can we deny that this is the case, and stand honestly before God? 

If there are two speakings, to two different times and two different peoples, in two different ways, the one speaking had to stop and the other speaking begin. And if that is so, there must be a clear point, in scripture, that we can see this happening. 

And there is just such a clear point, "The law and the prophets were until John"....Luke 16:16a. Doesn't this clearly say the law and the prophets WERE UNTIL JOHN? If they were until John, aren't we then told they have ceased speaking? 

And that is exactly what we're told in Matt 11:13, and its not just the law and the prophets, but ALL the law and prophets, "For ALL the prophets and the law prophesied UNTIL JOHN." Now, before you say, but 'prophesying' isn't speaking, let's rightly divide once more, with, "For he that 'prophesieth' SPEAKETH UNTO MEN...." 1 Cor 14:3. 

Can you honestly say this scripture doesn't tell us that the law and the prophets prophesied, that is they spoke, UNTIL JOHN? Could you do that without violating Hebrews 1:1-2? But Brother, it is not violation of God's Word that reveals truth. It is reconciliation of God's Word, with His Word, it is rightly dividing, that reveals truth. 

And in that the law and the prophets stopped speaking with John, when then does the new speaking, the speaking of God to us in these last days begin? Well, the same verse that tells us the law and prophets ended with John, goes on to tell us about the beginning of the new speaking of God unto us in these last days by His Son, "....since that time, the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Luke 16:16b. Let's see the entire verse again, and see if this doesn't give us, the needed dividing point between Hebrews 1:1 and Hebrews 1:2, the two totally different speakings of God...."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Luke 16:16. 

"The law and the prophets were until John...." cannot be said to be anything other than, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets...." and, 

"Since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it...." cannot be anything other than, God, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son...." 

Brother, truly now, can you find biblical fault with what I've said here? Can you do that without having to resort to excuse, or altering, or diminishing, God's Word? You see, I've demonstrated to you, each and every time you present such an excuse, that it cannot help but violate God's Word somewhere else. For every time you've come at me from one direction, I've responded to you from three, five, or more directions, putting those excuses in front of, and in the light of, God's Word. And they simply do not stand in that incredible light. 

I don't mean to denigrate, nor to disagree for the sake of disagreement. I truly believe in what the scriptures say, and my only investment is in the truth of God's Word. But to the Word of God, as God is my witness, I must remain true. 

Yes, I can err. But it will take scripture presented in such a way that it does not violate God's Word elsewhere, to prove that to me. That's what I've presented to you, scripture that is and can be, readily reconciled to every other scripture found in His Word. Did He say keep the law in the Old Testament? The Old Testament no longer speaks. We have a new speaking. Do you see what I mean? You cannot use the Old Testament to invalidate the New....for the New is God's latest speaking to us, not the other way around. 

God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you
 
  
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From:  brent (brent696)   9/26/2003 9:40 pm  
To:  Franksharing     
 
    
 
Dear Frank, 
>>>>>>>I believe the Law of God still stands, because Jesus died on the cross to pay for our failure to stand firm in the love of God. The Law will stand for ever and ever, but it will not be a burden or cause a fear of failing because Jesus paid the Price for the penalty of sin. <<<<<<<<< 

If I may? The Law does stand, and all of the Law must be fulfilled my every single soul that will pass into the New Age. 

BUT WHAT IS the Law????(rh) 

The Law is not some arbitrary rules God made up to place upon men so maybe their existence will be more harmonious, not some set of rules that God simply deems appropriate. The Law is the written manifestation of God Himself. They are DEFINITIONS of His own Being. Not one Law could God ever break for it is AGAINST His own nature to do other than what the Law says since the Law is descriptive of His own Being. 

Thus the Law is PERFECT. The Law even begins with "The Lord thy God is ONE" for it is the highest attribute of His Being. It speaks of His ABSOLUTENESS as He is not "one of" but rather a true "ONE" where there is no other. He is the Only True Being, His Being is the substance of eternity, He does not live forever, forever lives in Him. 

Back to the Law, when Christ is supposedly breaking the law, He is only breaking the way they understood the Law. Christ is the SEED of the Spirit, He is God's Being given soul and identity in Creation. He could no more break the Law than He could be something He is not as the Law is describing Him in the first place. CHRIST, the nature and Spirit which is His Being is what the Law was describing and by the Law describing what nature and Being is pure and undefiled, the Law also reveals WE ARE NOT of that nature and Being. He (Christ) is from above, we (created Being from nothingness) are from below. He is the Son (Seed) of God and we are not. So does the Law convict us as it exposes the weakness and darkness of our particular nature and Being. 

Ok, so first we are God (Transcendent Being), then the Word (God's Being being expressed in the Creation) coming first in written form (scriptures), next we have that same Word (God's Being being expressed in the Creation) in a soul, a particular identity. As a soul identity He APPEARS as one of us, BUT His Being, the nature He is drawn from is quite different as He is God's Being in a creational identity (soul). 

Man by practice can never fulfill the Law for though he might be acting in parallel with parts of it, he simply does not have that nature it describes within him, else he would be perfect in the Law and no one is. In the time of the written Word, it is said to bind them to your right arm, to tie them to your forehead. These are but shadows of things to come. Now the Word has come in soul and identity, in the Image of man. On the Cross His Being (The Holy Seed) was pierced by the sin nature, but in the process the "absolute" qualities of its holiness sanctified that nature such as ours. He is wounded, we are healed. Making Himself new, now the Spirit, that which is symbolized as His Blood, His LIFE/Being can be united with man. We must eat, ingest His nature and Being (be born of the Spirit of God). 

He who is the source of the Law, that very nature that the Law was describing, that pure undefiled righteousness itself is inseminated into man so as we become part of His body and Being. He is IN us and we are IN Him. Now do you see what I am saying? How the Law is fulfilled by each and every one who is born of the Spirit? "Unless our righteousness EXCEEDS that of the Pharisees", to those Born of the Spirit of God it does. The very substance the Law was describing in the first place has become the essense of our Being. First it came carved into stone, but only able to convict us it killed us. Now it comes by the Spirit, as breath(meta) it can be breathed in by man and so is man born of it. 

In short I have fulfilled the law for that very "Being" (God's) the written law only described, moves, lives, and breaths within me. Having fulfilled the Law I am provided True Rest and Security. 

The most common limited understanding in todays church which blocks the full realization of this is the idea that God is saying as if "Someone is going to die for this sin" and thus to fulfill His anger He slays His son in our place. Just to see His blood flow upon the ground. People get all emotional and weepy eyed as if some great favor was done by this executing someone in their place. This is they think "Christ poured out His LIFE for us" means. That do not attribute SUBSTANCE to Spirit and thus they do not understand Christ poured our HIS "LIFE BEING" for us to ingest. The blood of the Cross does no one any good if they refuse to drink it. 

God is not looking for blood to fulfill some vendetta against sin, God is looking for His own nature, God can only BE WITH Himself, PURITY knowing only PURITY, Holiness knowing only Holiness, see what I mean. In order to save us, He had to become part and parcel with us. Not being able to associate with the sinful nature, that Being which arose from nothingness, He sends forth His SEED into the Creation, first to reconcile within it the two natures, then to pour that nature into mankind. What God did was allow His Seed to become sin, so that sin might become sanctified in it (Him). If you take a good long hard look you will see you are very much influenced by the "God is out for blood vengence" ideology. 

Paul used many metaphors to explain ASPECTS of salvation, yet salvation is not a legal deal, not a plea bargain, it is a marriage where two become ONE in flesh (Being) while remaining separate in identity. Yet as any marriage it is only complete with consumation, that place where the seed of one enters the other and they become one in flesh. 

So what not can I say of the Law (written) and my relationship to it (rh)? What did Christ say when approached about breaking the Sabbath (rh)? 

"""""""5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6 [[[[[I tell you that one greater than the temple is here]]]]]. 7 If you had known what these words mean, `I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 [[[[[[For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath]]]]]]."""""""" 

The Temple, the Sabbath, the Law, they are all only pictures of Christ's Being, the nature of God. His nature IS mercy, those who were keeping rules forgot this. Christ did not fulfill the Law because He did no wrong, His sinlessness is only a proof that he is the nature/Being the Law describes. Each and every day of His life He fulfilled the Law as He was who He was, the Word of God in flesh. 

Shall I now, having that pure and perfect Being (the Spirit of God) within me return to live according to the written Word? When He that is within me is greater than the written Word, greater than the Temple, greater than the Sabbath? God has become my breath, my heart the Temple, His presence my Rest (Sabbath), His Spirit (Being) my shekina(sp) Glory. I fulfilled the law in its entirety, every jot, every tittle, but I have done so by the Spirit. Thus I worship by His Spirit and in His truth. 

brent



Chances are I do know, so get over it. 
- Brent's Defense 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    9/27/2003 12:20 pm  
To:  brent (brent696)   (36 of 49)  
 
  677.36 in reply to 677.35  
 
Hi Brent,

 

Regarding your Buddhist views I continue to be Amazed and Alarmed at your lack of discernment!

 

Not ever Spirit is a Good Spirit there are Demonic -  Deceiving Spirits as well therefore it is Unwise to accept the teachings of every spirit as Enlightened.

 

God has revealed Himself to mankind via Prophets who wrote down the Holy Scriptures and therefore the Bible Matches who God is 100%.

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word (Bible), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

You cant separate the Bibles definition of God from God because it is from God and it is concise and accurate and Only the Bible defines who God is while true Creation declares the Glory of God the Bible explains the Heart and emotions of the One True and Living God.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  brent (brent696)   9/27/2003 4:22 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (37 of 49)  
 
  677.37 in reply to 677.36  
 
Dear David, 
>>>>>>Regarding your Buddhist views I continue to be Amazed and Alarmed at your lack of discernment!<<<<<<<< 

I really have no idea what you are talking about, perhaps you know nothing of Buddhism since there is nothing of Buddhism in the post. 

>>>>>Not ever Spirit is a Good Spirit there are Demonic - Deceiving Spirits as well therefore it is Unwise to accept the teachings of every spirit as Enlightened.<<<<<<< 

You seem unable to distinguish between those which are (s)pirits, (created souls), and that ever existant Being we call God as "The Spirit". If your God is but one Spirit among many, then you are much closer to Buddhism than I. To speak of God as THE SPIRIT, that transcendent, ever existant Being; and to speak of those souls in Creation which are as breaths (spirits) to the physical "as if" they were of the same substantial Being as God then you would be dabbling in Idolatry as well as Buddhism. No doubt you probably are under the illusion that (s)pirits are eternal, if so welcome to Buddhism. I guess the fact they are created slipped by you. 

>>>>>>>God has revealed Himself to mankind via Prophets who wrote down the Holy Scriptures and therefore the Bible Matches who God is 100%.<<<<<<< 

Yep, assuming one understands the scriptures. I needed no other writing to say what I said for I only spoke from scripture. 

>>>>>>>>You cant separate the Bibles definition of God from God because it is from God and it is concise and accurate and Only the Bible defines who God is while true Creation declares the Glory of God the Bible explains the Heart and emotions of the One True and Living God.<<<<<<<<< 

Again, assuming one can understand what is said. Tell you what David, seeing as how we have done this before, you are real good at criticizing but you offer not one shred of evidence to contradict anything I said. You have said nothing but slammed me without even a witness such as scripture, that in itself in unscriptural for you speak from the assumption your understanding is without error. If you wish, ignore the rest of this post and commentate on the scripture you brought forth, divide it into its three categories, (in the beginning, was with God, was God) and define each. 

>>>>>>>John 1:1 In the beginning was the word (Bible), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.<<<<<<<<< 

Well I see you have define the first thinking "The Word" is only the bible. Yet if we go to the next verse 

"""""""JN 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.""""""" 

It should be clear John is speaking of Christ as "The Word" of God. Unless you think John is devious enough to shift what "Word" he is speaking of in mid context. Or unless you really believe that all things were created though the Bible. I think everyone knows John is speaking of Christ as "The Word" and the fact you placed "bible" in there is a total breech of honesty. I'm not sure I should continue to converse with one who so easily corrupts the scriptures in a vain attempt to condemn someone as heretical. I would have to consider you a disguised atheist as you seem to have no fear of God and what you do to His word (bible). 

Personally I don't think you understood half of what I said. 

So what now are your choices, 1 you can approach me with scriptural evidence of some kind and actually talk about some particular point. 2 you can continue your unsupported allegations. 3 you can claim I am attacking you, even though you threw the first punch, and gag me. (I think thats what you did last time). Or 4 ignore me. 

brent



Chances are I do know, so get over it. 
- Brent's Defense 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    9/27/2003 5:37 pm  
To:  brent (brent696)   (38 of 49)  
 
  677.38 in reply to 677.37  
 
Hi Brent,

 

Every time you post here you end up proclaiming that you are so wise and that I dont understand your posts and Every Time I have to explain the Simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus and that True Godly Spiritual matters are Simple and Open to everyone.

 

Mysticism and deep hidden secrets that entertain Pride and Deceit are Not a part of Christianity.

 

I know that you are not trying to present yourself as a Christian but your posting can be confusing to some.

 

Also since your postings are not clear and concise enough in presenting your Non-Christian views consider this as your last post on this forum.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  brent (brent696)   9/27/2003 7:53 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (39 of 49)  
 
  677.39 in reply to 677.38  
 
Dear David, 
Well I thought about answering you, maybe showing how there is an over abundance of scriptures which requires us to grow in knowledge. But it would not matter would it. Just as before you never show me one thing I said that is wrong, with scripture to back it up. And the only attempt you made at scripture (John and The Word) you obviously corrupted. 

You will do what you will do. 

brent



Chances are I do know, so get over it. 
- Brent's Defense 
  
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   From:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)    9/28/2003 11:35 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (40 of 49)  
 
  677.40 in reply to 677.38  
 
you are very correct in this, David. this man (Brent) is 
"very wise [and elitist] in his own eyes." he has also insulted 
and attacked me on more than one occasion. (even just recently 
over on another forum) 
I think you are right to either gag him or ban him. 

from all that I have seen he has nothing but contempt for 
people like you and I who uphold BIBLICAL truth and sound 
doctrine. he is always looking to start a fight and stir-up 
strife. he is very, very deeply caught up in the little 
sinister game of "oneupmanship." nothing to me could be more 
obvious. and it is a very evil game indeed. 

in any case, I have him on ignore. I am not interested in fighting 
with people who can be so utterly condescending and given to 
strife and insults. 

best regards. 

Len 


---> Isaiah 54:15-17 <---

"If you have not [and show not] (Divine) Love... all the rest profits you exactly NOTHING." - 1 Corinthians 13.

*LenBenHear/FranknSense/Romans 8:14 + John 3:8*

---> Isaiah 41:10-13 *Psalm 94:1-16, 21-23.* <---

Isaiah 41:

AND THE LORD said, 10 Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.' 11 "Behold, all those who were incensed against you Shall be ashamed and disgraced; They shall be as nothing, And those who strive with you shall perish. 12 You shall seek them and not find them-- Those who contended with you. Those who war against you Shall be as nothing, As a nonexistent thing. 13 For I, the LORD your God, will hold your right hand, Saying to you, "Fear not, I will help you.' 

VINCIT OMNIA VERITAS

* Truth Triumphs Over All *

(Always "speak the Truth in Love")...[see Profile] 

* There is a time for mercy...and a time for Judgement. * - (which one you get depends upon your honesty and humility before GOD)


 
and JESUS said, "I AM The Way, The Truth, and The [Eternal} Life [of GOD], *no one* shall be reconciled back to The Father except by Me." - "I AM the door..." - and you walk thru that door *on your knees.* For you see, The Way is: Repentance, Forgiveness, Transformation, and to walk in the Light as He is in the Light: to walk in the Light of His Love and Truth. * 

* There IS no other way. * mercy/grace/truth/and holiness. 


* GOD IS SEARCHING EVERY HEART AND THEIR (actual) RELATIONSHIP TO HIS SON AND ETERNAL WORD! * * He is looking for REALITY: not pretense! * 

* HEBREWS 12:25-29 * 

- and THAT is what's happening. *FOR REAL* 

THE FINAL SIFTING IS IN FULL-THROTTLE!




** The choices are yours...AND the consequences: whether good or evil. ** ~ ~Ecclesiastes 12:13,14. ~ 
================================== 
 
  
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From:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)    9/28/2003 11:46 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (41 of 49)  
 
  677.41 in reply to 677.38  
 
Here is the message you are replying to: 
From: David (DAVIDABROWN) Sep-28 1:37 am 
To: brent (BRENT696) 


Hi Brent, 

Every time you post here you end up proclaiming that you are so wise and that I dont understand your posts and Every Time I have to explain the Simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus and that True Godly Spiritual matters are Simple and Open to everyone.>>> 

>>>yes. even a child can understand the essentials of the 
Gospel and moral truth. 


Mysticism and deep hidden secrets that entertain Pride 
and Deceit are Not a part of Christianity.>>> 

>>>very true. gnosticism and "new age" ""philosophy"" always 
leads to pride and (above all) ""SPIRITUAL"" pride.! 
These people always present themselves as "the great gurus 
of 'mystical' christianity." ! 


I know that you are not trying to present yourself as a Christian 
but your posting can be confusing to some.>>> 

>>>Brent and Trent ALWAYS present themselves as "specially 
deep and wise" christians. - but ordinarily they enshew ANY 
kind of category like "new age" or "christian" or "buddhist" 
or whatever. 


Also since your postings are not clear and concise enough in presenting your Non-Christian views 

consider this as your last post on this forum.>>> 

>>>I'd say that is a wise choice. 


God Bless You, 
David 

================================== 

I know the type very well: gnostic/new age strife-meisters 
who (often) lead others astray. 

--------------------------------- 

all the best 
and God bless. 

Len 






TWO HIGHLY RECOMMENDED BOOKS for those who are wondering or considering the validity of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord: THE CASE FOR CHRIST, and THE CASE FOR FAITH, - both by journalist, legal expert, and author, Lee Strobel. - both of these books are a very, very worthwhile read. 
---> Isaiah 54:15-17 <---

"If you have not [and show not] (Divine) Love... all the rest profits you exactly NOTHING." - 1 Corinthians 13.

*LenBenHear/FranknSense/Romans 8:14 + John 3:8*

---> Isaiah 41:10-13 *Psalm 94:1-16, 21-23.* <---

Isaiah 41:

AND THE LORD said, 10 Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.' 11 "Behold, all those who were incensed against you Shall be ashamed and disgraced; They shall be as nothing, And those who strive with you shall perish. 12 You shall seek them and not find them-- Those who contended with you. Those who war against you Shall be as nothing, As a nonexistent thing. 13 For I, the LORD your God, will hold your right hand, Saying to you, "Fear not, I will help you.' 

VINCIT OMNIA VERITAS

* Truth Triumphs Over All *

(Always "speak the Truth in Love")...[see Profile] 

* There is a time for mercy...and a time for Judgement. * - (which one you get depends upon your honesty and humility before GOD)


 

Daniel 12:10: Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; 

but the wise shall understand. 


WHAT IS HAPPENING?---> *Matthew 24:10-14* ~ II Timothy 3:1-9, plus verses 12-15. * HEBREWS 12:25-29 * 
- and THAT is what's happening. *FOR REAL* 

THE FINAL SIFTING IS IN FULL-THROTTLE!

================================== 
 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/29/2003 12:15 am  
To:  SahaganBeta   (42 of 49)  
 
  677.42 in reply to 677.34  
 
Brother Sahagn
My interest in understanding the Law of God is not to make anyone feel condemned, but to give hope in the Blood of Jesus. Jesus died on the Cross to save all from eternal death. 

I for one do not want to be like Cane, thinking that it really does not matter, being blind to the light of Truth. He could not see anything wrong with his way of worship of God and His promise. After all he was worshiping God and looking forward to the fulfilling of the promise. There are so many examples of this very attitude trough out the Old and New Testament. But I will not take up time now to discuss  as deeply as could be.

Jesus is our Hope, He was faithful in all points of the Law. I do not even look at the Sabbath any more than all the other nine. If He has failed in any point His sacrifice would not have been acceptable to cover our sins.

Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. KJV

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. KJV

Rom 16:25-26 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: KJV

1 Cor 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: KJV

Gal 3:26-29  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. KJV

2 Tim 1:8-9 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, KJV

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: KJV

The royal law stands through out time "Alpha and Omega!"

Another interesting think to look at is the custom of Christ Jesus and of Paul even when he was teaching non Jews as it is referred to when they would teach and worship on the Sabbath.

I pray that we both and others that are reading these post will look deeper into the Word, and seek the truth that is revealed with in the pages.

Matt 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.KJV

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. KJV

With out faith in Jesus there is no Hope.

Your brother through faith in the blood of our Redeemer! 
Frank


 

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/29/2003 1:02 am  
To:  brent (brent696) unread  (43 of 49)  
 
  677.43 in reply to 677.35  
 
Hi Brent

It is good to hear from you.

I decided to answer you with a short reply with a few verse that for me answers your question of "BUT WHAT IS the Law????(rh) "

God's, nature of character is defined in the law. All creation was created with in the bounds of God's law and character.

Sin is a disruption in the perfection of balance that is in all creation. So it cannot be allowed to go on forever. When sin has contaminated any of God's creation it has to be wiped out completely. 
Without the sacrifice of Jesus none would have any hope. Weepy eyed or not, it took the innocent blood of Jesus to cleans us. You may ask why. It is because when we really understand the love of God then we can love Him back. The way we see His love is through His Son and His sacrifice to redeem us from sin.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. KJV

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. KJV

James 2:8-10 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. KJV

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. KJV

Gal 5:13-14
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
KJV

Gal 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. KJV

Eph 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. KJV

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. KJV

1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. KJV

1 John 4:7-11 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. KJV

I gave more verses than I meant to, it is hard to stop wants I start reading all the neat verses that speak to my hart. LOL

Take care my friend and God bless
Frank

 

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/29/2003 1:10 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (44 of 49)  
 
  677.44 in reply to 677.36  
 
Hello David
I enjoyed your input very much, I applaud you for your message in such a short post.
 
It spoke volumes!

Thank you my brother

Take care and God Bless.
Frank

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/29/2003 11:49 am  
To:  brent (brent696) unread  (45 of 49)  
 
  677.45 in reply to 677.35  
 
Dear Brent
I do not know if you will be able to reply or not. But I figure you will still get a notice that a message has been sent to you.

Last night I read you post very fast without really considering what you were saying. I am sorry about that, and I replayed in a way that more or less saying your words of wisdom are only for you and your made up understanding.

Well, when I reread it this morning with a clear and refreshed mind, I realized that what you were saying, about the Law of God, is very much in harmony with what I have been saying. The only thing is I am not big on using phrases or select words to express what the Bible is saying to me. (to me that just makes it confusing and inspires debate) I feel for my self the closer I stay with "it is Written" then I can keep self and self thoughts out of the picture with an awe of humility for God's sacred Word.

Your explanation of God's law and character was very good, thank you, I am glad I took the time to reread it.

Keep the Word before you as you express your self, using Jesus as your example you will be met with less resistance and a greater interest and fellowship in what you have to share.

How ever there are many subject that bear more study on the part of all, such as The One and Only True God, creator of Heaven and Earth.

1 John 5:5-8 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. KJV

To my humble understanding The Spiritual body of God includes The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I let the Word tell me and explain it to me without having to add my reasoning to it.

 Another thought I would like to share is Righteousness by faith. Even though we have excepted Jesus as our atonement. Of our selves there is no righteousness in us.

 It is a continuing on going faith in Jesus. Paul admonishes us as followers of Jesus to continue to "run the race that is set before us". He tells us no matter how discouraged or week we may feel God will never forsake us. Free grace is not to except grace by makes us perfect but a providing of strength from on High to give the understanding and oneness with Jesus to overcome. Each and every day is a new day and it will be full of choices to make. So we need to continue to run the race that Jesus has provided victory for us if we will only persevere! That way even in our failures, we are victorious through faith in the righteousness of Jesus!

Take care my dear friend and brother in Christ Jesus
Frank



May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    9/29/2003 12:01 pm  
To:  Franksharing    (46 of 49)  
 
  677.46 in reply to 677.45  
 
Hi,

 

I wanted to clarify my reason for banning the previous poster.

 

Brent is a self declared Non-Christian he practices a form of   Enlightened Spiritualism Zen  Buddhism where the few select enlightened ones who receive a spirit any spirit become one with God.

 

In his Trolling Efforts here he is participating in the worst kind of trolling and that is to Sound Christian and then hook in some poor fellow who wants be enlightened like  Mr. Brent and then via email Mr. Brent takes his new convert on a journey into Selfish Pride of deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

 

I fell obligated and commited to our forum members and visitors to keep the record straight and to Always warn people about internet contacts.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Franksharing    9/30/2003 12:40 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (47 of 49)  
 
  677.47 in reply to 677.46  
 
Thank you Dave for the heads up. 

I appreciate your comments and the way you monitor your room. 
Thank you for allowing me to participate.

Yours in Christ Jesus
Frank

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
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  From:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)    9/30/2003 2:11 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (48 of 49)  
 
  677.48 in reply to 677.46  
 
Yes, bro. that is very much correct. he ""sounds"" christian, 
[in certain respects] 

but (in terms of SOUND DOCTRINE) he is very much a deceived 

deceiver. 

I won't belabor the point, but I think you definitely made 
a good judgement-call. 


TWO HIGHLY RECOMMENDED BOOKS for those who are wondering or considering the validity of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord: THE CASE FOR CHRIST, and THE CASE FOR FAITH, - both by journalist, legal expert, and author, Lee Strobel. - both of these books are a very, very worthwhile read. 
---> Isaiah 54:15-17 <---

"If you have not [and show not] (Divine) Love... all the rest profits you exactly NOTHING." - 1 Corinthians 13.

*LenBenHear/FranknSense/Romans 8:14 + John 3:8*

---> Isaiah 41:10-13 *Psalm 94:1-16, 21-23.* <---


VINCIT OMNIA VERITAS

* Truth Triumphs Over All *

(Always "speak the Truth in Love")...[see Profile] 

* There is a time for mercy...and a time for Judgement. * - (which one you get depends upon your honesty and humility before GOD)


 
and JESUS said, "I AM The Way, The Truth, and The [Eternal} Life [of GOD], *no one* shall be reconciled back to The Father except by Me." - "I AM the door..." - and you walk thru that door *on your knees.* For you see, The Way is: Repentance, Forgiveness, Transformation, and to walk in the Light as He is in the Light: to walk in the Light of His Love and Truth. * 

* There IS no other way. * mercy/grace/truth/and holiness. 


JESUS: He Is The Ultimate Answer to every Ultimate Need and Question. - HE IS The Lord GOD and Savior: Mercy, Grace, ~ Truth and Salvation ~ IS FOR THOSE WHO RECEIVE HIM...IN TRUTH and * from the heart. *


It all has to do with *fruit* and destiny.---> YOUR choices. Choose Him: choose Life. HE IS GOD's Way to mercy, grace, forgiveness... and TRANSFORMATION! 
IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN "...FAITH that WORKETH by Love..." and GRACE that is made manifest BY FRUIT. - "faith without fruit is DEAD, being alone." Selah.

================================== 
 
  
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   From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    10/8/2003 8:40 pm  
To:  brent (brent696) unread  (49 of 49)  
 
  677.49 in reply to 677.11  
 
You: 
Observing the Sabbath "SAT." is to reject Christ as the Bread of Life in favor of Manna in the wilderness. 
The bible doesn't say that. The bible actually says if you love God you will keep His commandments. 2 John 1:6. 

You tell me obeying is a bad thing. The bible says obeying is a good thing. 

YOU: 
Therefore Messianics are not Christians for they have not put their hope in the Spirit that is the True Sabbath. 

Yes, I know we are not Christians. There is no commandment in the bible that one MUST label themselves as a "Christian" to be saved. However, it is incorrect to say we do not trust God. 


Barbara 
  
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